<@auntdeen2> so I have a general question for the neighborhood... casp is almost over - which would you consider more important a priority? fixing current bugs - or shiny new tools? or something else?
[02:00:40] <greepskiIRC> since I'm fairly new, I still am not good with the existing tools yet! Don't need more to confuse me. :)
[02:01:21] <@Madde> are there still significant bugs around?
[02:01:24] <@auntdeen2> :-) so maybe more learning tools? video?
[02:02:03] <harp> yes x100
[02:02:21] <@auntdeen2> dunno madde - if not bugs then long requested features/fixes - from looking at the feedback
[02:02:54] <@auntdeen2> the original request for a "pause" button that Brick did is years old
[02:03:25] <OmniDude> Solve the scisma between old and new interface, perhaps?
[02:03:59] <@Madde> the devs probably waiting for the 5th anniversary of that request
[02:04:08] <harp> lol
[02:04:21] <@auntdeen2> Omni - there is history to that that you can search on the website - the selection interface is no longer supported
[02:04:55] <@auntdeen2> but no question there are some advantages to it that *should* be integrated into the original
[02:05:02] <@auntdeen2> lol Madde
[02:05:53] <harp> when did foldit go on line?
[02:06:05] <@auntdeen2> maybe just to me - but I'd rather have a pause button than any other new tool I can dream of
[02:06:11] <OmniDude> I know but theres still things that can only be done in the old interface, isn't there?
[02:06:15] <@Madde> open beta started May 2008
[02:06:29] <@auntdeen2> Omni - old = original?
[02:06:49] <@auntdeen2> the selection came after
[02:07:12] <alwen> Is there any way to cycle through sidechain positions in the main interface?
[02:07:29] <@Madde> I think downloading new recipes is the only thing I use the old interface for
[02:07:36] <@auntdeen2> rofl - you can do that in selection?!
[02:07:58] <@Madde> in selection it's a bit buggy
[02:08:15] <@auntdeen2> madde - we are opposite then, I rarely use the selection interface
[02:09:04] <Brick> I went into selection by mistake today - couldn't get out fast enough
[02:09:39] <@auntdeen2> I would love to see any script you downloaded automatically be shared to yourself
[02:09:51] <@auntdeen2> that sounds like me, Brick
[02:10:13] <@auntdeen2> it seems clunky to me
[02:12:35] <@auntdeen2> so greep & harp - what kinds of thing - and how - would you like to see as teaching tools?
[02:15:08] <harp> I don't know what else could be used as a teaching tool
[02:15:29] <@auntdeen2> you mean video, yes?
[02:18:45] <harp> video ;would be good, the baker lab does good video, but not many of them play. I would like to see folders show us in "real time" situations
[02:19:23] <@auntdeen2> so... maybe webinars that could be recorded and placed on the website?
[02:19:33] <harp> great idea
[02:19:57] <gitwutirc> I think it would be helpful to have better classification of Recipes. Some method for benchmarking older vs. newer versions of the same script would help too.
[02:20:34] <@auntdeen2> good idea, gitwut... how would you do that?
[02:20:52] <tokens> I think classification of recipes is difficult
[02:21:36] <gitwutirc> I had several ideas that I put fort in a feedback, but it was slightly off-topic and didn't stir much interest. Let me see if I can find the feedback.
[02:21:46] <gitwutirc> forth*
[02:21:52] <@auntdeen2> true tokens... but maybe a system of simply keywords?
[02:23:06] <gitwutirc> yes, that was the gist of it
[02:23:08] <greepskiIRC> sorry, I was afk, but it would help me to actually see a video of someone hand manipulating an actual puzzle. For example, I can't make sense out of the cutpoint stuff. Why would you want to use it? etc.
[02:23:52] <@auntdeen2> I think that would help many
[02:24:03] <gitwutirc> http://fold.it/portal/node/993061
[02:24:04] <tokens> Well, I would like a classification, but for me it seems like utopia. Even start game, mid game and end game doesn't really make sense for scripts
[02:24:18] <@auntdeen2> even the oldest vets have a learning curve when it comes to new tools
[02:24:40] <gitwutirc> mutate, structural, utility, etc
[02:25:23] <gitwutirc> The thing is to be able to assign multiple tags for each script
[02:25:52] <gitwutirc> settlers, quakes, fuzes
[02:26:10] <gitwutirc> symmetry
[02:26:24] <greepskiIRC> I would like to have a permanent practice protein to play with so I could try out the scripts etc before I actually need them. maybe that's dumb? lol
[02:26:43] <gitwutirc> you can create contests
[02:26:49] <@auntdeen2> greepski - that's an awesome idea
[02:26:59] <@auntdeen2> go feedback that!
[02:27:08] <Susume2> it would be nice to have a few permanent proteins available as a test bed for scripts
[02:27:28] <harp> yes, that is a good idea
[02:27:30] <@auntdeen2> yes - something smallish but not too small
[02:27:50] <tokens> gitwut: I see I already answered you comments in that feedback. I still dont think it makes sense in practice to classify scripts like that
[02:28:50] <@auntdeen2> tokens - do you think that a keyword/tag system might be helpful for some folders?
[02:29:05] <gitwutirc> Why not? It's no differnt than using labels to categorize your gmail.
[02:31:22] <gitwutirc> And, it's something to go by--as opposed to nothing whatsoever.
[02:31:35] <@auntdeen2> because I have folded for so long, I have many scripts and am familiar with most of them... but will admit that occasionally I get a surprise to find out that one will do mutate, also
[02:31:55] <tokens> well, a classification might help beginners to get started. But it might might also reduce creativity with regards to how you use scripts
[02:32:50] <tokens> a good script writer would write what the script is capable of in the comments of the script
[02:33:17] <gitwutirc> I don't see it, tokens. Even with classifications you'll still get stuck or find something that works better. But it's a starting point.
[02:33:18] <harp> oh I wish they all did that
[02:33:22] <tokens> I usually look at the source code of my scripts, so I don't have the problem of not knowing what a script can do
[02:33:50] <@auntdeen2> I get what you are saying about limiting... but tokens, many do not open the scripts to see the code
[02:33:52] <disturbedxxx666> hi
[02:33:54] <gitwutirc> Assuming all scripts contain no bugs
[02:33:57] <Brick> there's only a small percentage that can do that
[02:34:05] <Brick> read the source
[02:34:22] <Brick> and understand it
[02:34:22] <@auntdeen2> true
[02:34:46] <disturbedxxx666> imagain if recipies and scrips didnt exist
[02:34:50] <@auntdeen2> I can read it and get general understanding - but mod, no
[02:34:52] <tokens> well, another thing is that I think it would be hard for people to agree on a classification in the first place
[02:35:26] <Brick> and there are so many combo scripts now, they would just end up with all the tags
[02:35:28] <disturbedxxx666> how difficalt would this game be>
[02:35:30] <disturbedxxx666> ?
[02:35:50] <tokens> My point of view is that scripts are too complex for any classification to make sense
[02:36:02] <Brick> I agree
[02:36:07] <disturbedxxx666> haha
[02:36:15] <tokens> but I would love to be proven wrong
[02:36:17] <@auntdeen2> true Brick - and the way it's going, more scripts are ttempting to cover all bases these days
[02:37:19] <@auntdeen2> but for the older scripts, it would be nice to have them semi-classified
[02:37:23] <harp> lol
[02:37:31] <jeff101> fix the recipe editor with line numbers
[02:37:59] <jeff101> also list update times for recipes within cookbook to help keep track of versions
[02:38:41] <gitwutirc> Regular copy/paste/select would be nice too.
[02:39:45] <jeff101> little images of the shared protein structures to help users decide which ones to evolve
[02:40:10] <jeff101> should we all just revive our favorite feedback cases?
[02:41:05] <jeff101> the little images could even rotate around like characters in Mario Kart do
[02:41:33] <tokens> I don't think a small image would do any difference jeff. You wouldn't be able to see much
[02:41:35] <smilingoneIRC> We can't even get all script writers to use a universal naming convention.
[02:41:47] <smilingoneIRC> How on earth can we classify them properly?
[02:42:12] <jeff101> somehow youtube classifies videos in a useful manner
[02:42:30] <smilingoneIRC> What does V2 mean? Depends on which script you are looking at.
[02:43:46] <jeff101> there are ways to compare text files. some schools use plagiarism detectors that look for common text
[02:45:21] <smilingoneIRC> Another issue with scripts are the disappearing act when someone makes a change without changing the name before a save.
[02:45:38] <@auntdeen2> and that seems to be a bug, smiling
[02:45:49] <smilingoneIRC> operator error.
[02:45:54] <Susume2> yes some decent form of version control for scripts would be great
[02:46:14] <smilingoneIRC> common sense would seem to dictate the changing of the name when making a change.
[02:46:20] <jeff101> ones that are parents/children could be sorted easily enough
[02:47:18] <jeff101> sometimes names don't change because the new version is meant to replace the old one
[02:47:31] <jeff101> old one had some bug, new one has fixed the bug
[02:47:38] <smilingoneIRC> most of the time it is someone making their own favourite change
[02:47:58] <@auntdeen2> and... many never even know that there is a bug
[02:48:07] <jeff101> if cookbook kept track of authors as well as names, that might help
[02:48:45] <jeff101> same name but different author gives separate recipe in cookbook
[02:48:50] <smilingoneIRC> naming convention is greatest issue that I see. coupled with proper discriptive comments
[02:49:36] <smilingoneIRC> It's really easy for me. I only used scripts from a very select few.
[02:50:03] <smilingoneIRC> don't want to use someones experiment that wiggles it into cement
[02:50:46] <smilingoneIRC> Pause button for scripts would be my #1 wish
[02:50:55] <jeff101> every user probably gathers impressions about each recipe
[02:51:21] <jeff101> there could be a place in cookbook for users to put their own notes for each recipe
[02:52:13] <smilingoneIRC> If you really like a recipe a lot you can simply save it to self under a slightly changed name and make extensive comments.
[02:52:29] <@auntdeen2> many good ideas here tonite - and many older requests still hanging fire and wanted
[02:52:35] <jeff101> if this info went back to the Foldit site, they could crunch it all together to make a global description of the code
[02:52:38] <brow42> scripts no longer autounshare when changed
[02:53:01] <smilingoneIRC> As of when brow?
[02:53:03] <tokens> I would love to see them implementing design of new molecules (which there was talk about some time ago). That would be a whole new game to have design puzzles where you had to design a ligand for a protein
[02:53:07] <brow42> 2-3 weeks
[02:53:24] <smilingoneIRC> Good to know brow
[02:54:17] <smilingoneIRC> Do the changed ones go up in place of the original?
[02:54:38] <brow42> they do when reshared
[02:55:09] <tokens> I general I prefer the developers to work on new features, rather than small changes to the existing features
[02:55:30] <smilingoneIRC> So, I save a combo to my group and someone makes a change and unbeknownst to me it is now different?
[02:55:37] <brow42> I prefer not to have an entire change history like some source code repository
[02:55:41] <@auntdeen2> there are many scripts where the old versions are better for certain types of puzzles than the newest
[02:56:03] <brow42> no, smilingone. only you can save and reshare the script
[02:56:12] <brow42> when people use Save As, the script becuse a child
[02:56:35] <brow42> peple who are not authors of the script cannot save the script, they must use Save As, the UI forces this.
[02:56:39] <smilingoneIRC> yes, but, what happens when someone else uses save instead of save as?
[02:57:33] <smilingoneIRC> are you sure brow?
[02:57:54] <brow42> very. These used to be marked 'Read Only' in the old cookbook.
[02:58:09] <brow42> The Save button is greyed out on any script you download
[02:58:21] <jeff101> is it possible for users to manually say their recipe is a child of another one?
[02:58:35] <jeff101> since the Foldit editor is so bad, folks often use other editors
[02:58:46] <brow42> it is possible to hack the system in the client, although I don't know what wouold happen when you try to upload it
[03:00:05] <jeff101> if you edit outside and then paste the entire changed recipe into the editor, the editor doesn't know if it was made from scratch or adapted from someone else's code
[03:00:15] <brow42> correct
[03:01:09] <jeff101> so the automatically determined parent/child relationship won't occur
[03:01:46] <brow42> correct. It's not automatic. It happens when you use 'Save As' in a buffer that belongs to an existing script.
[03:02:17] <jeff101> how to establish the parent/child relationship manually?
[03:02:31] <brow42> Save As works fine.
[03:02:48] <brow42> open script. clear code. paste code. Save As.
[03:03:18] <brow42> Save will be grey unless you own the script.
[03:04:03] <brow42> If you've already saved it from an empty buffer so that it has no parent, then there isn't a legit way to create that relationship after the fact.
[03:09:59] <@auntdeen2> thanks everyone for a lively and informative discussion...
[03:10:22] <@auntdeen2> it would be great to see some feedbacks :-)
[03:11:48] <@auntdeen2> ...or you can rely on my memory banks to try to pass most of this onto the devs at some point :-P
[03:13:12] <@auntdeen2> greepski - thanks for doing feedback, have uprated :-)
[03:14:16] <jeff101> Hoops! http://fold.it/portal/node/992670
[03:14:51] <jeff101> like bands, but the protein can slide through them, so really more like pullies or the eye of a needle
[03:16:15] <@auntdeen2> jeff - is that the same as freeze/lock in space?
[03:16:29] <jeff101> I disagree that it is a duplicate
[03:16:46] <jeff101> would you do me a favor and bump it as not a duplicate?
[03:17:24] <@auntdeen2> okay... then go do another comment which explains why it isn't - why it's different - and reopen yourself :-)
[03:17:33] <@auntdeen2> that would be more effective
[03:18:19] <@auntdeen2> I think that although you put a lot of thought into the concept, most people perhaps don't have the vision yet
[03:33:38] <brow42> I just stumbled upon this auntdeen
[03:33:40] <brow42> http://www.backupproject.org/
[03:37:17] <brow42> If we could move the protein EXACTLY where we want it, with strength 1000 bands, and then thread that the way the alignment tool works, you'd have what Jeff is asking
[03:43:42] <jeff101> something that lets the protein move like a snake, worm, or centipede would help
[03:44:45] <jeff101> AA1 moves forward, then AA2 takes the position AA1 used to be in, then AA3 moves to where AA2 was, etc.
[03:46:09] <harp> that would be interesting
[03:53:51] <jeff101> if you like the idea, please up-vote it at http://fold.it/portal/node/992670
[03:54:38] <harp> I will read it
[03:55:06] <jeff101> thanks
[03:56:52] <SeanBarber> Your idea is interesting I justed finished reading it.
[03:59:20] <jeff101> hoops are like tees and holes on a golf course
[04:01:19] <jeff101> tightly coiled proteins will take more AA's to go from one hoop to another, sort of like people using the 9 iron for every shot on a golf course
[04:03:15] <jeff101> no matter how many shots (amino acids) it takes, the golfer still has to go through every tee and hole (hoop) in a specified order
[04:03:34] <Trigger> That's more like croquet.
[04:27:36] <Trigger> Better teaching tools, of course. We chat mods aren't always here.
[04:27:39] <@auntdeen2> I know - you want better hoof to protein interface
[04:27:53] <Trigger> Yes, yes. SO hard to fold with hooves.
[04:28:21] <harp> lol
[04:28:31] <Trigger> Still waiting for Kinect For Horses for FoldIt.
[04:28:32] <@auntdeen2> those who wished that seemed to think that webinar (live) lessons with video for posting on website after would be best
[04:30:11] <@auntdeen2> so much has changed since the last test videos and the youtubes were done
[04:30:22] <Trigger> It would be nice to actually see someone go through their process of folding.
[04:32:23] <@auntdeen2> yep - the players on top teams have a small advantage by seeing screenshots, etc - but even within teams video is priceless - and for foldit as a whole, becoming necessary
[04:33:22] <Trigger> We have the ability to record FoldIt play with audio. Once life at the Hacienda calms down, I could see putting together a short training video or videos.
[04:34:08] <@auntdeen2> when I was skyed into the dev meeting I attended, zoran was talking about webinars...
[04:34:26] <Trigger> Sweetness. What kinds of software would we need?
[04:34:38] <@auntdeen2> I suspect that the devs can probably provide the tools for that and for video recording them
[04:35:05] <@auntdeen2> they may be able to get pro tools that we wouldn't want to pay for individually
[04:35:23] <Trigger> I still want to see different players' approaches to the game. Would they actually buy software for us to use?
[04:36:06] <Trigger> How about they set up a PayPal or WePay account for us to donate to, to help buy the stuff?
[04:36:18] <@auntdeen2> I found an excellent remote viewer, JoinMe - but it doesn't work for Linux :-(
[04:36:24] <Trigger> I know Boots' credit card would come in handy for that. :-)
[04:36:32] <@auntdeen2> lol Trig
[04:37:15] <@auntdeen2> I think that we need to make the case to them that they should provide (it seemed as if zoran was heading in that direction)
[04:37:50] <Trigger> [hoof up in approval to that idea]
[04:37:56] <@auntdeen2> but if not, then yeah - maybe we could all contribute a bit for the right license to make it easier
[04:38:29] <@auntdeen2> and the devs do need however to find a way for the website to accommodate hd video
[04:38:57] <Trigger> And free ourselves from YouTube?
[04:45:13] <@auntdeen2> our proteins have gotten so complex - like the electron density - that we need both HD and good size
[04:45:46] <@auntdeen2> there is still nowhere that I'm aware of that's easy and free and able to upload unlimited
[04:45:52] <Trigger> But isn't that going to severely limit our freinds with lesser computers?
[04:46:07] <@auntdeen2> and since we do actually have a foldit website - should go there
[04:46:15] <@auntdeen2> in what respect?
[04:46:32] <@auntdeen2> all I would like to see is exactly what we see ingame
[04:46:36] <Trigger> Actually, lesser internet connections.
[04:46:41] <@auntdeen2> with that clarity and size
[04:47:22] <@auntdeen2> if we need to post non-hd additionally, that's easy
[04:47:31] <Trigger> Fair enough.
[04:47:52] <@auntdeen2> but it needs to be on foldit website
[04:48:06] <@auntdeen2> even the wikia has limitations for what we need
[04:48:11] <Trigger> Do they have the server space for all that data?
[04:48:21] <@auntdeen2> well
[04:48:26] <@auntdeen2> have no idea
[04:48:41] <Trigger> I am thinking they have only one server.
[04:48:51] <@auntdeen2> but considering that at least once a month we have chat or website issues...
[04:48:57] <Trigger> Which crashes with alarming regularity.
[04:49:16] <@auntdeen2> maybe they need to finally move the website and chat to the same setup as the game
[04:49:57] <@auntdeen2> they spend little enough resources on players :-)
[04:51:09] <@auntdeen2> lol - in fact, the hosting company I use has unlimited storage and bandwidth - for slightly over a hundred a year
[04:51:51] <@auntdeen2> if they are that tight financially, then we have much bigger problems than videos :-P
[04:52:32] <Trigger> It is a university-sponsored thing. I think it's all dependent on grant money. Grants aren't for forever.
[04:52:49] <@auntdeen2> that's true
[04:53:15] <Trigger> We helped Rav get up to speed. We can do the same for the Baker group.
[04:53:30] <@auntdeen2> and if that's the case, then maybe we can go the paypal route :-)
[04:57:29] <Trigger> It helped that some of the AD team lifted me up there. I am not solely to blame for that.
[04:57:54] <harp> rofl
[04:58:07] <@auntdeen2> sooo.... fyi, one reason I am on the bandwagon about the videos is that our team is about to release a technique that many of us use, when casp is done
[04:58:21] <@auntdeen2> huh - I didn't see that, Trig
[04:58:21] <Trigger> Of course... AFTER. :-p
[04:58:35] <@auntdeen2> lol
[04:58:56] <@auntdeen2> the reason is that it is not very effective for the refinement puzzles
[04:59:17] <Trigger> Is that you CAN'T FREAKIN' WALK puzzles any more!
[04:59:32] <@auntdeen2> and all of us are flat out anyway - best to do it when everyone wants to play with something new
[05:01:59] <@auntdeen2> Trig - we earlier discussed briefly the demise of walking :-(
[05:02:58] <Trigger> Has anyone ever given a proper explanation to why it's no longer viable?
[05:03:57] <@auntdeen2> sigh - I'd kinda like them to just put it back the way it was
[05:03:58] <Susume2> but he backtracked very quickly when I called that an "official" explanation
[05:03:59] <Trigger> You can't walk even from square one.
[05:04:16] <@auntdeen2> yeah - I've seen that
[05:04:35] <Trigger> Contenders has proof it doesn't work at all.
[05:04:37] <@auntdeen2> I'd like to see them nail that down before they introduce anything else
[05:04:52] <@auntdeen2> then - send it on to the devs!!!!
[05:05:04] <Trigger> We have.
[05:05:09] <@auntdeen2> good
[05:05:09] <Trigger> Fallen on deaf ears.
[05:05:21] <@auntdeen2> agh
[05:05:49] <@auntdeen2> maybe we as players need to give the devs a list of what we would like as priorities
[05:06:01] <@auntdeen2> like fixing walking
[05:06:04] <Trigger> When I skyped with David Baker, I said just that.
[05:06:08] <@auntdeen2> a pause button
[05:06:09] <Trigger> And he agreed.
[05:06:39] <@auntdeen2> then - end of week when casp is done - time to work on that
[05:07:04] <jeff101> will there be a global chat with the devs any time soon?
[05:08:02] <Susume2> my guess is beta's been too busy to organize one
[05:08:03] <@auntdeen2> none are scheduled - but I suspect that there will be not too long after casp end
[05:09:16] <jeff101> it's been a while
[05:11:14] <@auntdeen2> well - besides a lot of work for casp, the devs have had conferences - and vacations like many for summer
[05:11:52] <jeff101> classes will start soon too. college professors are busy folks